A Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN), former President of the Nigerian Bar Association and ex-Attorney General and Commissioner for Justice in Rivers State, Chief Onueze Okocha, shares his thoughts with DENNIS NAKU on a wide range of issues, including the new Electoral and the ASUU strike You were in Rivers State some years back when the courts came under serious threat with explosives going off within court premises. What actually went wrong? I was not present at the scene. But I heard that rival groups of politicians from a certain political party, not the Peoples Democratic Party which is in government and power in Rivers State. Certain political activists or shall I say thugs from some rival political parties were engaged in court battles. And instead of going to court to deal with the matter as expected, they started engaging themselves in fracas. So, I don’t know. I believe the police took on that matter and investigated it. I do not know the outcome of the police investigations and whether anybody or any persons for that matter have been brought to book for that unwarranted attack on the judiciary and the premises of the judiciary in Rivers State. The Rivers State chapter of the Judiciary Staff Union of Nigeria also went on strike as a result of the attacks on some judiciary complexes in the state. What was your position on the matter then? My understanding is that the judiciary staff union went on strike about what they call financial autonomy of the judiciary. Why that should lead to a strike in Rivers State was something which I wondered about. This is because financial autonomy had already been implemented in Rivers State. The judges did not complain. I did not know if the magistrates complained. So, it came as a surprise to me. I believe that a few days after they embarked on that strike, the governor of Rivers State issued an ultimatum to them to return to work, failing which he would put them on a no-work-no-pay regime. So, happily, they quickly returned to work and the judiciary has since been operating and the courts have been sitting regularly save for the intervening COVID-19 restrictions and lockdowns that followed the pandemic that ravaged the world in 2019/2020 and 2021. I think we are now having some kind of ease-up, even though everybody is still advised to live responsibly; wear a facemask and practice social distancing. At a point, your sister who is also a lawyer had part of her house engulfed by fire. How were you able to handle such a tough period? That fire incident was very unfortunate. I went to visit my sister to find out exactly what happened. But she said they just discovered a fire from one of the upstairs rooms in the house. So, I don’t think anybody was blamed for that. I don’t even know that it was an act of sabotage or arson as somebody may want to describe it. I just assumed that the fire brigade and all the other authorities would investigate and come up with their findings. I know that the Rivers State Government at the time relocated my sister, Justice Daisy Okocha, to another accommodation and ultimately when she became Chief Judge of Rivers State, she was allocated the chief judge’s residence which was her entitlement as chief judge of Rivers State at the material time. What was the effect of the closure of the courts in Rivers State on the people of the state? It had a very unpleasant effect. Lawyers could not go to court. Judges and magistrates could not sit to administer justice and the mostly litigating public was put at a very precarious position when they could no longer prosecute their cases. Perhaps, most affected were the persons who were on criminal trial, particularly those who were kept in prison custody awaiting the conclusion of their cases before the courts. You know the reality of our legal system is that courts should never be shut because they symbolise the freedom of the people so that anybody who has a grievance is free to approach the courts. By that significant principle, the courts should never be shut because you are now preventing the public from assessing justice. What can it lead to? A situation where the ordinary man would now be forced to take laws into his own hands and that can lead to anarchy and the destabilisation of a civil society. Anybody who engages in shutting down the courts whether from JUSON, whether from striking judiciary workers, whether from protesting party members who had a case in court and thought that the best way to deal with their problem was to attack the courts, there must be round condemnation against such people. In fact, at some point, we heard the story that a particular government of Rivers State at the material time was even backing those who shut down the courts. All of them must be roundly condemned because what they have done is an attack on the fundamental rights of citizens to assess the courts to pursue their rights and interest as guaranteed under the fundamental rights provisions in Chapter 4 of the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. So, they must be roundly condemned. Nobody, no matter how highly placed, should ever attempt to shut down our courts. What would be your advice to politicians who like fomenting trouble for personal gains, not minding the harm the masses will suffer? My advice to them is they should all realise that politics is an activity that should be engaged in accordance with the laid down laws, laid down rules and regulations governing the matter of politics. It should not be what they call a war. It should not be a do-or-die affair. Present your manifesto, present your candidates, political parties. Let them present themselves to the public. And those candidates should await what should be free and fair elections. A free and fair electoral process should be in place, which is why everybody is presently happy that the new Electoral Act has been given assent by the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria (Muhammadu Buhari). So, we hope that politicians will all read that law and ensure that they carry on their activities strictly in accordance with the provisions of that status. The National Assembly was at a point tagged ‘rubber stamp’ because some people felt that the lawmakers were always yielding to the whims of the executive. Do you think that the federal legislature has done enough for the country’s development? When a legislature forgets that she is there to represent the interest of the people, you begin to wonder whether they truly believe that they are elected representatives of the peoples of Nigeria. When you go to the National Assembly, your main duty is to make laws for the good governance of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and not for the good governance of your political party, whether it is the All Progressives Congress, the Peoples Democratic Party or the All Progressives Grand Alliance. Once you are elected, you are representing the people and your main focus, your main interest should be the laws that are passed by the particular legislative house; in this case as you asked, the National Assembly. Those laws must be laws that cater for the interest and welfare of the peoples of Nigeria. And I do hope that the current National Assembly which all the time appears to be pandering to the whim and caprices of the ruling APC should realise this and do what is needful, what is right and what is salutary for the progress, peace and development of the Nigeria in its entirety. The National Assembly recently voted that states should control Value Added Tax collected in their domain. Are you one of those who think it is a welcome development? Yes. Value Added Tax is something that must relate to the place where the services are rendered or goods are purchased. It should not be what they call a nationwide tax. It should be restricted to particular localities where these services and goods are being distributed. So, I entirely agree VAT should be a tax collectable by state governments. Many Nigerians now resort to self-help because they feel justice in Nigeria is slow. What are the reasons for the slow dispensation of justice in the country? I do not think it is advisable for anybody to resort to self-help because of the perceived slow pace in the administration of justice in Nigeria. What we should clamour for is for a proper establishment of our courts, so that these matters that have currently been seen to be suffering inordinate delays can be quickly disposed of. It is better to go slowly and steadily to that destination called justice. Self-help can only lead to anarchy. Self-help can only lead to a breakdown of law and order. Self-help can never lead to what we know as lasting justice. I appeal to all concerned to show understanding in the matter and assist the judiciary in its bid to quickly dispense justice and also to ensure that justice is efficiently and effectively delivered. That is the only way forward. We have these problems of delays but we cannot reverse what we know should be a well ordered society and say we are now resorting to self-help. It can only lead to anarchy and breakdown of law and order in our societies. There are many items in the exclusive list which are controlled by the Federal Government which are also not properly handled. Do you think it would be fair for the Federal Government to drop some of those items or share them with the states? My view on this is that the National Assembly that is in this current process of amending the constitution should listen to the cries of the peoples and should also be proactive in this matter and recognise that the Federal Government is over burdened with all those items that have been placed in the exclusive legislative list. Now that the National Assembly is engaged in the amendment of the constitution, they should look at that legislative list and remove from it things that are not truly supposed to be under the purview of the Federal Government and allow the states to deal with those matters. Most of the states have been calling for resource control and some kind of autonomy to enable them to deal with matters that are within their states. That is the way to go, so that we can reduce this clamour for restructuring of the federation, we can reduce this struggle for resource control and so on and so forth. The Federal Government does not have the capacity. Look at law and order for instance, it has virtually collapsed. Why, because of this centralised Police Force that we have. Personnel are not well trained. They are not even properly equipped. I believe that policing of our borders for instance, policing within states should have a facility that would allow the states to set up their own internal security agencies, whether they call them internal police forces or whatever. Go to developed countries, you have all kinds of levels at which you administer law and order. The FBI is there in the United States, but each state has its own police force. Even cities have their own police departments. Security is something that is next door to you. And you don’t expect orders from above in Abuja when you are dealing with a small skirmish in my village at Rumuokoro. So, these issues that are placed in the exclusive list need not all be there. Those who are there in the National Assembly should wear their thinking caps and ensure that the right thing is done. What is your view of the rotation of the presidency? That is a matter for political parties and politicians to discuss. My personal view is that at this stage of our development, Nigerians should begin to see themselves as Nigerians and for crying out loud, here in Port Harcourt, why should I bother about who is in Aso Rock, so long as I am getting good governance where I am. This thing about zoning, sectionalism, this thing about from which zone should a president or a governor come from, for me are very distracting and they take us back to primordial sentiments. A Nigerian who is ruling Nigeria well would be well appreciated because he is ruling well not because of where he came from. I want to remind people. In 1993, we had an election in this country where M.K.O Abiola contested. He was a Yoruba man from the West. He was a Muslim; his running mate was from the North-East, Babagana Kingibe from Borno State. He also was a Muslim and both of them, together won what was virtually the best conducted election in Nigeria up till date. Nigerians didn’t mind and truly it doesn’t matter to us who is there ruling us from Abuja. What we want is good governance throughout the country. What we want is freedom, what we want is economic prosperity. So, whether the President is from the North or from the South, it doesn’t matter to me and it doesn’t matter to most Nigerians. So, I don’t think that zoning is part of our constitution and nobody should begin to campaign for office based on the fact that he or she is from the North or he or she is from the West, or he or she is from Igbo land or he or she is from Yoruba land. Those are primordial sentiments. We want a Nigerian who is a patriotic citizen to be our president. We want a Rivers man who is a patriotic citizen and loves Rivers State to be our governor. That is my own thinking on that matter of zoning. Nigerians suddenly woke up to notice the presence of adulterated or off-spec petrol in almost all the filling stations in some part of the country. But nobody has been punished as a result of such an anomaly. What is your take on this? Somebody should be punished, somebody must be made to answer, somebody must be held accountable, and it is not difficult to know how to trace the source of the adulterated fuel that now got into our filling stations nationwide. The position is such that we are having fuel queues all over the place. Man hours are being lost; people’s vehicles are being damaged because of the adulterated fuel. The Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation is still in charge of this matter of importation of fuel and gives licences to fuel importers. It should not be difficult for them to trace who imported this adulterated petrol and deal with the person decisively. They should not sweep it under the carpet. Nigerians are tired of taking all these flimsy excuses from the NNPC and the supervising ministry which is the Ministry of Petroleum Resources. It should not be difficult to trace the source of this adulterated fuel. Killing for money rituals is gradually becoming the norm. What could be the cause of this and how can such crime be eliminated? I don’t believe that money rituals can ever give anybody wealth. Those who are engaging in it, I think are misguided, they are maybe insane or you know have imbalance in their brains. The law should deal with that matter. There should be no two ways about it. It is a law and order issue because what they are engaging in is criminality of the most serious kind. Kidnapping of persons, murder and killing of those persons and then of course whatever they engaged in there; these are all criminal activities and the law should deal with them decisively. Members of the Academic Staff Union of Universities are currently on strike over what they termed Federal Government’s failure to implement the agreement it had with ASUU. What do you think should be done to assuage the feelings of the union? I have heard on the radio and television that the Minister of Education has constituted a new panel to renegotiate with ASUU and come up with lasting solutions to our current saga. It is not right, not for the progress of our students, not for the progress of our development for ASUU to be on strike. So, let ASUU and the Federal Government through its relevant ministries in charge of education and the educational progress of this country, sit down with patriotism, forefront in their minds and reach solutions that will help us to move forward. Strikes that are interminable may not help us. So, I call on all concerned to show patriotism and resolve their differences as best as they can with the interest of the country and its educational development foremost in their minds. What is your view about the Russia and Ukraine war? The world at this time should understand that wars, violent conflicts can never help us to progress, can never help the countries involved to resolve their differences. Dialogue, since they founded the United Nations after World War 2, has been recommended as the viable way forward. There is a United Nation Assembly. That matter should be dealt with by negotiation with the United Nation acting as arbiter between Russia and Ukraine so that the issues that are paramount in the mind of Russia which is the country that is seen as the antagonist at this time can be amicably discussed and resolved. The Rivers State Governor, Nyesom Wike, will be done as the Number one citizen of the state by next year. How would you rate his performance in the last seven years? All of us agree and most of you in the media also agree that our governor has performed well. All of us agree. The few opposition politicians who do not want to see any good in what everybody says is good should continue to wallow in their misconceptions, in their bitter politics. Look outside my office and you see one flyover. It wasn’t there one year ago. It is there now and the environment is beautified. Drive left, you are on Mummy ‘B’ road. It has been dualised. Drive right, it is Tombia Street, dualised all the way to Ikwerre road with street lights all the way. Very soon the Waterlines flyover will be completed. I imagine that once that one is completed, from my office to the High Court premises where I go to do my cases will take me less than 15 minutes. Look at what has happened since he became the governor; we now have Rivers State University Teaching Hospital. The Faculty of Medicine is now part of what used to be University of Science and Technology. But it is now Rivers State University. So, we have a Faculty of Medicine, College of Health Sciences in addition to what the federal university called University of Port Harcourt has, which is the University of Port Harcourt Teaching Hospital (UPTH). Health sector he has performed. The Mother and Child Hospital is just down this Aba Road near the Air Force Base, old Port Harcourt way. So, I rate him highly. You appear not to be interested in partisan politics. Why is it so? No, I am not. You see, long ago I thought about it. Indeed it was around that time when Dr Peter Odili (former Rivers State governor) was about to round off his second tenure. But I realised that I am not cut out for that kind of engagement. The politics of administering the state, administering the resources of the people is not like the politics of administering the interest of the Nigerian Bar Association which was a political election that I fought under what we call NBA politics, bar association politics. But national politics is a very tedious thing, I have seen it myself. And I don’t think I have the stomach for it. neither do I have the energy for it. It requires political skills. I am a straight thinker. I don’t see what they call the intrigues in those matters that relate to governance. I look at the books and I say this is what the law stipulates. This is what the status says, and I just follow it.